We know Muhammad Ali was an iconic athlete and outspoken activist. But Pulitzer Prize-winning dance critic Sarah Kaufman of The Washington Post says he should be remembered as an artist, too. In fact, in many ways, he was more like a dancer than a rough-and-tumble fighter.

Muhammad Ali died June 3 at the age of 74. We sat down with Kaufman to reflect on the heavyweight and his dancer-like grace that she says was part of what made him such a mesmerizing figure.

Listen to our full conversation by clicking the orange “play” icon below.

Some highlights:

On boxing and grace

“His sport was all about pain and fighting and yet he came at us on all three of the plains with which we associate grace: the physical, the social and the spiritual.”

On having Parkinson’s disease

“We can all embody grace on all of these levels … and  Muhammad Ali … pointed that out: that it does not have to rob you of your inner grace and ability to connect with people.”

On being an artist

“He wasn’t just a skilled athlete in command of all of his physical faculties. He actually had an artistic talent … like his ability to move backward, which was also surprising in its agility. Most boxers didn’t move backward; that was a retreat. [But it became] such an artistic element of his whole manner of fighting … it’s agility … it’s elusive.”

Sarah Kaufman wrote about Ali’s grace for the Washington Post, where she is a dance critic. You can read more of her work here.