Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton spar in their last debate before Tuesday’s crucial New York primary. They clashed over breaking up big banks, curbing gun violence, and the U.S. approach to Israel. Ted Cruz doubles down on his disparagement of “New York values.” House Speaker Paul Ryan says he will not be the Republican nominee in 2016. Candidates from both parties turn up the heat on the hunt for delegates, while Donald Trump says the primary rules are stacked against him. A task force finds the Chicago Police Department is plagued by racism. And Louisiana’s governor issues an order banning discrimination against LGBT state workers. A panel of journalists joins Diane for analysis of the week’s top national news stories.
- Manu Raju Congressional correspondent, CNN
- Amy Walter National editor, Cook Political Report
- Susan Glasser Editor, Politico
MS. DIANE REHMThanks for joining us. I'm Diane Rehm. Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton do battle in Brooklyn. Paul Ryan insists he won't accept the GOP presidential nomination and a taskforce says the Chicago Police Department is plagued by racism. Here for the domestic hour of the Friday News Roundup, Susan Glasser of Politico, Manu Raju of CNN and Amy Walter of the Cook Political Report.
MS. DIANE REHMI do invite you to be part of the program. Give us a call at 800-433-8850. Send your email to firstname.lastname@example.org. Follow us on Facebook or Twitter. And it's good to see all of you.
MR. MANU RAJUHi, Diane.
MS. SUSAN GLASSERHi, Diane.
MS. AMY WALTERGood morning.
REHMGood to see you. And Manu, your takeaways from the debate last night between Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton in Brooklyn?
RAJUWell, it was probably the feistiest debate that we have seen so far. I mean, remember, at the beginning of this campaign season, Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton were sort of playing nice with each other and Bernie Sanders was pulling his punches, in large part, when he had an opportunity to go after her, but not last night. We saw a very aggressive Bernie Sanders going after Hillary Clinton very early.
RAJUWhen asked whether or not she was qualified to be president, he said, well, she may have the experience to be president and the qualifications, but she doesn’t have the judgment to be president, going after her very hard on the issue of the Iraq war, on her support for trade deals, on, of course, her speeches to Wall Street. And Hillary Clinton punched right back. She went after Bernie on a variety of issues, his support for more lax gun laws, including liability protections for gun manufacturers and also saying that a lot of his proposals are pie-in-the-sky proposals that will never become enacted.
RAJUSo we really saw these two candidates going, you know, round by round, throwing punch after punch, but I don't think either one of them really landed a knockout blow that will change the overall complexion of the race. What Bernie Sanders hopes to do is narrow the margin in New York, which was voting -- the primary is on Tuesday there. Hillary Clinton is up very big in the polls right now, double digits. Maybe he can cut it to single digits, maybe he can get some delegates on Tuesday, cut into her lead and that could, hopefully for him, change the complexion of the race.
WALTERYes. I would absolutely agree with Manu's description of that and I feel like we've seen this debate now, even though it was a little feistier, but this is the debate that has been occurring between these two candidates from the very beginning, this idea of, you know, incrementalism, which is the Hillary Clinton model of you can't solve everything with one silver bullet. You got to work and compromise. And the Bernie Sanders inspirational message, which is we can dream big and if we don't dream big, then we're never gonna get very far.
WALTERWe'll just be stuck. And that debate raged once again last night. And I think if you're Bernie Sanders supporters, there was nothing that Hillary Clinton said that would make you think that, you know what, I should probably vote for her. And if you're a Hillary Clinton supporter, you didn't change your mind on supporting her. But I do think it goes to the real heart of the challenge for Hillary Clinton going forward. Look, she has a delegate advantage. The math is on her side.
WALTERBut she has got to find a way to tap into what clearly Bernie Sanders has mined, which is this frustration, especially among young voters, with the status quo, with the establishment, with the way things have always been, and Donald Trump helps her do that because he motivates many people to vote against him. But getting them to support her is going to be another matter.
GLASSERMy colleague, Glenn Thrush, said it was shouty, pouty and nasty. I think we can all agree on that.
GLASSERVery Thrush-ian. Look, clearly, the race had changed in its tone and tenor since the beginning. Hillary Clinton did not take Bernie Sanders initially seriously, as a real threat, and has become very visibly frustrated at her inability to put it away, despite, as Amy pointed out, the math being very much on her side. But let's be real. Tuesday, in New York, if she wins New York, as expected, the math becomes even more impossible for Bernie Sanders and that may mark the effective end of the race.
GLASSERNow, conversely, of course, were Bernie to pull off an upset on Tuesday, that would really pretty dramatically -- that would probably be the most significant event of the campaign in some ways. It would signal that we were having a genuine Democratic race all the way to the convention. All week long, you've heard Bernie almost -- he was almost talking like Donald Trump, right, at the beginning of that debate last night when he started talking about the polls.
GLASSERNationally, we're showing him closing and, you know, making this sort of Trump-ian case for I'm popular, therefore I should be popular, right? There's a great circularity to both of these outsider candidates right now. But both of them are increasingly frustrated and visibly frustrated. Of course, that's what's been happening in the Republican race this week is mounting frustration at the rules, the math.
GLASSERSo you've got playing a math game on the one hand, Cruz and Clinton, and on the other hand, you have people playing -- but got some other math. I've got national polls that show me rising.
REHMOne thing I want to say about these debates, I wish that we could have them either without an audience or with absolutely no applause. I found that totally distracting. I found that taking away from the substance of what people were talking about. I feel that I, as a viewer or a listener, would get much, much more if that applause or indeed, that audience was totally eliminated.
GLASSERI don't disagree with you about that, Diane, although I will say that I think this was one of the most substantive debates that we've had. I mean, these two candidates came in with very different perspectives and views on really, really important issues. We didn't delve into the sort of silliness that you see in a lot of these debates. But I do agree with you that, you know, where we get into, when you have a crowd, is this idea that suddenly one person, right, it becomes much more about whose cheering and who's getting booed.
GLASSERAnd that impacts the way that people perceive the very...
RAJUYeah. In the general election, those debates, those crowds are restrained because both campaigns agree to allow the crowd to, you know, they don't want the crowd to cheer. The primary is different because these candidates try to pack the audiences with their supporters and that does affect the perception. And I think last night, that rowdy audience contributed to the very aggressive response from Sanders and Clinton. At one point, Wolf Blitzer tried to interrupt Hillary and Bernie and said to them, look, you're screaming at each other.
RAJUNo one knows what you're talking about.
REHMAnd the reason they were screaming at each other is encouragement by that audience.
RAJUThat's certainly part of it, but it's also campaign strategy as well. They both did not want to give an inch. I think you really saw that at the beginning of the debate, about the Wall Street transcripts, which I thought was just a really riveting part of that debate where, you know, Hillary was pushed by my colleague, Dana Bash, about whether or not -- why not just release your transcripts to Wall Street? And she pushed back and said no, because Bernie Sanders should release his tax returns instead.
RAJUAnd it was, you know, the argument was a transparency argument. She's trying to turn it around on Bernie Sanders. And as a result, Bernie Sanders agreed to release one year of his tax returns today so we should be seeing that today, but those questions about Hillary Clinton and her paid speeches to Wall Street persist.
REHMAll right. Here's an email from Amber who says, "can the panel speak to the dynamic in the Democratic primary of calling Hillary Clinton to task for the '94 crime bill while giving Bernie Sanders a pass for voting for it? This is not limited to Sanders surrogates and supporters. The moderator in the debate last night did the same thing. First Ladies don't make laws. Senators do." Susan.
GLASSERWell, you know, I'm glad you read that comment. That was something that leapt out to me last night, that it was, you know, on the one hand, is Hillary Clinton accountable for her husband's actions? She pointed out that Bill Clinton has, in fact, apologized for it. She gave her own version of that apology. It was a little bit, you know, churlish, I think, or, you know, not generously given. I'm sorry for the unintended consequences that did occur.
RAJUI'm sorry that you're sorry.
GLASSERAs a result. I'm sorry I made you feel that way. But then, you have, boom, as this aside, oh, and Bernie Sanders voted for it, given how he has, I think, more successfully used Hillary Clinton's vote in favor of the Iraq war as one of his major talking points against her, even though she has said that she regretted that action. It's really striking that they've tried to turn it around. Now, of course, the politics behind this are that Hillary Clinton has run incredibly strongly against Bernie Sanders among African-Americans.
GLASSERThis is seen as a vulnerability on the part of Clinton with that key voting group in the Democratic primary. But the bottom line is that not only has Bernie Sanders not really made significant inroads, but if anything, I think last night's debate and his own positioning suggests that he really doesn't quite understand why he hasn't connected with that key demographic in the Democratic party. And you really cannot win the Democratic nomination without having more solid support among that group.
REHMAll right. We've got to take a short break, but I want to read two contrasting tweets. The first, "wait, what, Diane? Keep the supporters out of the debate? Absolutely wrong. A silent room is not democracy." Second tweet, "Diane Rehm, totally agree about audience. Very distracting. Feels like a wrestling match, not a serious and important debate." Short break, we'll be right back.
REHMAnd we've spent the first part of our domestic Friday News Roundup on Democrats. Let's turn now to Republicans. Ted Cruz doubled-down on New York values, his remark at a CNN town hall Wednesday night. Amy Walter, how come?
WALTERWell, that -- he's also up with an ad denouncing Mayor de Blasio as a socialist and really trying to cut into Trumps significant lead in that state. Look, Ted Cruz is in for a rough couple of weeks here. We are headed in the primaries into states that are not naturally strong for Ted Cruz -- the Northeast, the so-called the Sella (sp?) corridor, New York, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Connecticut. So his only hope in a state like New York is the fact that it awards the majority of its delegates by congressional district.
WALTERIf he is able to win or at least hold Donald Trump under 50 percent in a lot of these districts, especially Upstate where they're more conservative, maybe some more socially conservative, he'll be able to not pick up that many for himself, but to keep Donald Trump away from hitting that magic 1,237.
REHMAll right. And here's an email from Jerry in Kalamazoo. Donald Trump says the rules are stacked against him. The GOP says, them's the rules. That is no answer, says Jerry. If the rules are unfair and they disenfranchise voters, they ought to be changed.
RAJUWell, that is Donald Trump's argument. But the problem for Trump is that each state sets its own rules on how to award delegates. And these rules have been set in place for probably more than a year at this point. And the argument from the RNC is that, look, you just need to know the rules of each state. And mainly what Trump is complaining about is at Colorado. There was a convention there that essentially awards its delegates by the convention rather than allowing the broader electorate in the state to actually vote. And Trump complains that, you know, he shouldn't -- that that rule disenfranchises his voters.
RAJUAnd, but the problem for Trump is that, that was the rule to begin with. He should have gotten his supporters out to the convention, supported him and maybe he could have won some delegates. And it looks, in some ways, that he's a sore loser, because Ted Cruz won all of Colorado's delegates.
GLASSERWell, if he goes to the convention with a lead and he doesn't come out the nominee, I think we're already seeing the kind of loser he would turn out to be if that's the scenario. The bottom line is a single word that Amy already used, math. This is the part of the primary season that comes down to math. And it's turned out to be a lot harder to have an organization on the ground in all these states, mobilized and ready to go. We reported that his chief, sort of field organizer for Colorado didn't show up until two days before the delegates were going to be apportioned. Well, guess what? You're probably not going to be able to wire the entire state and to master complicated rules if you're only fielding somebody there two days beforehand.
GLASSERAnd I think, increasingly, that's going to be the complaint both of Trump and of Sanders on the Democratic side. These outsider candidates are learning and the American public is waking up to this once every four years' or even eight years' realization -- hey, wow...
REHMDelegates matter. And...
GLASSERThat's right. It's not an open national primary.
REHMAnd Marco Rubio suspended but did not get out of the race. He holds 171 delegates.
WALTERBut he does not control them. So this is the most important thing. Here's what I -- I agree with the caller/emailer in the sense that, look, this is a very difficult argument to make for the RNC and anybody else who's supporting the system as it exists, at a time when 70, 80 percent of voters on the Republican side are saying, we don't want an establishment candidate. We want to blow up the system as it exists. Defending the system is very difficult, is number one.
WALTERAnd the second thing is it's going to be -- the argument about them's the rules is the one that the RNC is making. I would argue, if I were the RNC, is to help people to understand why they created it. That delegates, in fact, are there to protect the campaigns from the party bosses, right? That you have individuals who can say, hey, no, no, no, big party boss who wants to try to rig the system. I'm from Pennsylvania, I'm from Delaware, I say no. But they're not making that argument. They're making a rules argument.
WALTERBut I do think that at the end of the day the other thing we have to really remember is you're going to have 2,500 people who show up in Cleveland. These are regular human beings, okay? They're not just these robots that go, I will vote for party, I vote for candidate. They have to go -- I just think about that pressure on them, not just in Cleveland -- but they have to go home to their families, their friends, their work colleagues.
WALTERThey may destroy relationships with people for the rest of their lives. This is going to be a big deal. And we cannot predict what they're going to do, we cannot.
RAJUAnd this is the real challenge for the Trump campaign because they have not organized in the way to get their delegates to the convention, the way that Ted Cruz has.
REHMWhere does the delegate count stand now?
RAJUI don't have the math right on top of me, on the top of my head, but I think it's, you know, I think Trump has like a 200 delegate lead. Of course you need 1,237 delegates to become the Republican nominee. And what the Trump campaign hopes for is a big win in New York on Tuesday, where 95 delegates are at stake, then Pennsylvania, which is a week after. And they actually believe that they can get that 1,237 number on June 7. And that's when California votes. And that they think they'll take California and win them.
RAJUBut if they do not get 1,237, then we go into a contested convention. Trump may not win on the -- won't win on the first ballot. And the concern is, on that second ballot, where do those delegates go who are unbound? Do they go to Ted Cruz who's better organized?
REHMAnd Paul Ryan has said he is not going to play this game.
GLASSERWell, that's right. Unless he's bidding for a place in the dictionary as a substitute for Shermanesque, you know, I think he's really trying hard to rule himself out and, more importantly, to rule out this scenario that there's going to be some sort of a white knight who rides in on their horse and gives those 2,500 delegates a face-saving theme. Manu is right, by the way, it's almost exactly 200 delegate lead. Right now, Donald Trump has 743 delegates, Ted Cruz has 545. Rubio, who's not even in the race, 171, and John Kasich, still running, often omitted from our conversation, 143 delegates, of course, just really based on that Ohio win.
REHMOkay. So what happens if Donald Trump does not win New York, the way he thinks he's going to win New York?
RAJUIt's a big problem. I mean, what the Trump campaign told supporters on Capitol Hill yesterday -- they had a meeting with a senior-level campaign aide and a handful of House Republicans -- they said that they believe that they'll win 85 of the state's 95 delegates tomorrow -- I mean, on Tuesday. If they get less than that, that becomes very problematic. Then you hit into Pennsylvania. And if John Kasich, who's running at about second place right now, can expand his second-place margin and cut Trump's lead down significantly, that's a big problem for them.
RAJUBut right now, Donald Trump, the polls are looking pretty good for him in New York and in Pennsylvania, and then the map gets pretty favorable for him too. So we'll see. I mean, but it could be -- Tuesday will be a big day.
GLASSERBut even if he gets -- meets those expectations, and it's interesting that they're setting those expectations, which I believe are actually lower than the expectations that they had a week ago, where they were talking about more or less sweeping New York. So you can see them ratcheting it down. Even, as I understand it, in that scenario where he basically does well in this sort of Mid-Atlantic series of primaries over the next couple of weeks, you're now looking at a situation where the only point at which Trump could lock up those 1,237 votes needed is on the very last day of the primary voting in June. And that scenario is vanishing.
GLASSERSo, in other words, we're already -- we're only in April. We forget that. We're already more or less know that we're going to go to June without having a Republican nominee secured. So basically we actually are now more or less hurdling down that track of going to a contested convention...
GLASSER...which is basically unprecedented in our lifetime.
REHMLet's go to Arina in Jacksonville, Fla. You're on the air.
ARINAHi. I am a Palestinian American and a Bernie supporter. And last night, on the debate, he touched on the crisis in Gaza. And I think his comments were pretty much unprecedented for a candidate. He touched on the unemployment rate and the health care and the -- I wonder, it's -- do the guests have any input on how this will affect his campaign? And when he is elected, will he make change with Israel in the Gaza crisis?
REHMWhat do you think, Susan?
GLASSERWell, you know, it's very interesting. Somebody pointed out basically that, last night, asked this question. Bernie Sanders talked about the Palestinians and Hillary Clinton talked about Israel. And that does suggest a real gap in their thinking and their approach to it. Sanders is under fire at the moment for having appointed a sort of chief adviser to his campaign on Israel issues, that he had to actually suspend from his campaign yesterday because of comments she had made that were personally critical and insulting of the Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu on her Facebook page. This is how -- the world we live in right now.
GLASSERBut I do think that Sanders really does not reflect the mainstream either of Democratic or Republican Party sort of orthodoxy when it comes to kind of reflexive political support for Israel, even if certainly Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have been very critical of Netanyahu over the course of Obama's presidency, they have a terrible relationship. But on the other hand, in terms of policy, they've remained -- the mainstream of the Democratic Party has remained pretty much solidly in favor of Israel's approach.
GLASSERWhereas Sanders, while being the first major Jewish candidate for president, at the same time, has talked much more like somebody who wants to disrupt the status quo, very critical consistently of Israeli human rights violations.
WALTERYeah. I think what Hillary Clinton represented in her defense last night was very much the -- a good position to take for New York. I think though, if you look more broadly at the Democratic electorate, it has actually gotten much more supportive of the Palestinian situation. And you have a Democratic electorate now moving much further to the left on this issue than they were 20 years ago. And I think it's reflective, one, of the increasing diversity of the Democratic base, as well as young voters, who I don't think have the same reflexiveness on Israel that many of their parents and grandparents did.
WALTERAnd so it is a -- when I saw that, I think it was the Pew Research Center tweeting out last night, just the percentage of Democrats who feel more sympathetic to Israel is about 20 percent. Those Democrats who say that they're more sympathetic to Palestinians, about 16 percent. So kind of evenly divided now. And I think the younger generation is a big reason for that.
RAJUYeah. I'd -- I totally agree with you. I think, the most surprising aspect of those comments last night was the fact that Bernie Sanders made this in New York, where the politicians there in that state take a very hawkish view towards Israel. Even the senior senator from New York, Chuck Schumer, was actually an opponent of the Iran nuclear deal because of concerns from the Jewish community in New York. So Sanders' taking that approach could hurt him in New York but maybe not as much nationally.
REHMAll right. To Jean in Chapel Hill, N.C., you're on the air.
JEANGood morning. In watching the debate last night, I was struck by the fact that Hillary Clinton gave very complex answers to many questions, while Bernie Sanders gave more simplistic questions. But what really impressed me, and no one seems to notice, is she is the first woman in our history to be on the presidential stage, slugging it out, giving as good as she got, in a typical, old-fashioned political brawl.
REHMAll right. Susan, your reaction.
GLASSERWell, you know, look, of course the caller's right. Isn't it remarkable in some ways that we are not, you know, we're 35 minutes into this conversation and we're not talking about the fact that there's a woman up there, not only running as a very serious, if not a frontrunner, for president, but actually engaged in a brawl on the stage. I guess it's a mark of progress.
REHMAnd you're listening to "The Diane Rehm Show." Here's another perspective from Sherwood, Ark. Joe, you're on the air.
JOEYeah. I've been living with the Clintons for -- since I was in junior high school. Hillary Clinton would not be near where she is -- she would be on the back page if her name wasn't Clinton and she wasn't a woman. She's getting a lot of her support because she is a woman. I heard on -- the other day on the news, there was a lady that, hey, she's a woman, I'm a woman, I'm going to vote for her hands down, no question. If -- and this, it's just -- it's sort of reverse discrimination.
REHMI'm going to let you respond to that, Manu.
RAJUWell, look, I mean, the fact that, you know, she's -- would be the first woman nominee of any party is incredibly significant and is a big draw for a lot of voters, especially woman voters. You can't discount that. Certainly the fact that, you know, Bill Clinton is her husband was what propelled her to national prominence. But you could also say, look, she's a two-time senator. She's a secretary of state, running one of the major departments in the government, so clearly has the qualifications. Whether you agree with her policy and ideology, that's a different question.
REHMAll right. I want to read you an email from Larry in North Carolina, who says, when Trump says the deck is stacked against me, he wants his supporters to hear the deck is stacked against you. He has already said he's going to publicize names and hotel room numbers of delegates. I think he's setting up volunteer intimidation for the convention and election, hoping mob rule will get him to the White House. Amy.
WALTERWell, let's hope not, since I don't know how many of us here will be in Cleveland. But I'm looking forward to not having to buy riot gear to go to a convention. But, look, I think what he's also doing is he's been very successful on the P.R. war of this. The Trump campaign has been pretty terrible, as my colleagues have noted, on the nuts and bolts of the campaigning and understand how the rules and the system works. But where Trump has been very successful from the very beginning is in marketing himself and marketing his message. And the message about fairness and the deck stacked, I think, worked very well for him.
WALTERAlready, if you look at the polls of the Republicans overall in recent days, 52 percent of them said, if Donald Trump comes into this election -- or into the convention with the most votes and the most delegates, even if it's not the majority, he should be the nominee, period. 65 percent said there should be no outsider candidate. If you didn't run, if you haven't been in the field, you can't -- ala Paul Ryan or some other miracle candidate that just comes in at the last minute -- they shouldn't get it. So this argument is a very powerful one.
WALTERNow, how you use it, I agree is very important. Publishing names, threatening people, that is not going to be okay.
REHMIs there real evidence that he has done or is planning to do this?
GLASSERWell, I think, we don't know what he's going to do, first of all. But, second of all, I think people often make the mistake with a demagogue like Trump of not taking him at face value. Listen to what he says. Look at how they've treated the press. Look at -- they've used similar tactics in terms of unleashing some of the violence at those rallies. And I wouldn't put it past him.
REHMAll right. Susan Glasser of Politico. We'll take a short break. More of your questions, comments, when we come back. Stay with us.
REHMAnd welcome back. Here in the studio, Manu Raju. He's Congressional Correspondent for CNN. Amy Walter is National Editor with the Cook Political Report. Susan Glasser is Editor of Politico. And I certainly have meant to tell you you can see the Friday News Roundup in this hour if you go to drshow.org. Click on 'watch live.' We are video streaming this hour of the Friday News Roundup. And we welcome your participation. I want to ask you about what's happening in Louisiana. There's been more LGBT related legislation this week, Manu.
RAJUThat's right. The Governor, John Bel Edwards, who's a Democrat, signed an executive order actually protecting state employees from discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity. Now, that's much different than a lot of other states across the South. A number of other states like North Carolina that's been in the news, has taken a much more aggressive approach, particularly going after transgender people and their use of bathrooms that do not match the -- their gender of their birth certificate.
RAJUNow, John Bel Edwards, as I noted, is a Democrat and he's took this position that has infuriated folks on the right, but there's a real divide, particularly in the Southern states about how to deal with the aftermath of the Supreme Court legalizing same sex marriage. And the religious right, that is, believes that this is an issue of religious freedom.
REHMAll right, let's go back to the phones to Ryan in Portsmouth, Virginia. You're on the air.
RYANThank you for having me Diane.
RYANPlease let me remain on the line to hear my answer because I'm out of range of the radio station.
RYANMy question was, I seem to think that not even a month ago, there was reports that the FBI was officially investigating Hillary Clinton for the email scandal. And I just wanted to know from your panel, why does Bernie not attack that?
REHMWhere are we with those emails?
GLASSERWell, first of all, it's not clear how much personal jeopardy, even were the FBI to choose to pursue a case against it, that Hillary Clinton would be in. It could reflect upon members of her staff and the real issue at hand, of course, would be around the possible mishandling of classified information that might have appeared inadvertently or advertently in those emails. Remember, back to the very first in this series of debates, when Bernie Sanders came out and basically said, I'm sick and tired of hearing about Hillary's email.
REHMRight. That's correct.
GLASSERAnd he's more or less stuck with it, even as the race has gotten testier and they've gotten more clearly personally disdainful of each other, he has made a calculated and probably correct, by the way, political decision not to do that. By the way, the Republican candidates have not been shy at all at bringing up the email at all times and I would imagine that that will continue into the fall campaign if there's no official word from the FBI or the Justice Department closing the case.
RAJUAnd on the investigation front, Hillary Clinton said recently, Sunday show interview, that she has not yet been interviewed by the FBI. So we don't know exactly where the FBI is in its investigation. But on the political side, for Bernie, it's not clear how much it would help him in a Democratic primary, because polls actually show that most Democratic voters are not that concerned about it. But in a general election, this could be a liability for her because it hits at what is one of her biggest liabilities, and that's her trustworthiness.
RAJUAnd Republicans are going to hammer home that point and say, this is someone you cannot trust. So, it clearly could be an issue for her if she wins the nomination.
REHMAll right, Ryan, I hope you heard every word. Let's go to Jeffrey in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma. You're on the air.
JEFFREYHello, Diane. Thanks for my call.
JEFFREYHey, I've been vexed by the constant calling of, on, by, declarative statements by Senator Sanders on Hillary Clinton's vote for the war in Iraq as though she was all in favor of regime change. And actually, we know it's a more involved answer. It had to do with Hans Blix and the weapons of mass destruction, inspectors and giving them more time. And so, it's as though there were -- you would blame Eugene McCarthy for the Khmer Rouge and the killing fields in Cambodia because he had voted for the Tonkin Gulf Resolution.
REHMAll right. Susan.
GLASSERWell, it's not the first time that a nuanced position of a candidate has been boiled down to something, you know, more than a decade after the fact, that seems much less nuanced. And I think, in general, by the way, right, that is the challenge that Hillary Clinton has faced. It's true on the Iraq War. It's true on that 15 dollar minimum wage question last night, right? She has a nuanced position about should we pursue the 12 dollar minimum wage at the national level first?
GLASSERAnd I think that that, unfortunately, is a challenge against running against a guy who is proclaiming a political revolution and isn't interested in making a nuanced debate.
REHMHere's an email from Evan in Holland, Michigan. He says, as a Sanders supporter, I would only vote for Clinton if she released her Wall Street transcripts and disavowed her Super PACS.
WALTERWell, you're not going to see her disavowing the Super PACS.
RAJUI guess she lost a voter.
WALTERSo let's, let's, let's make that clear. But I do think that the pressure on her to release these transcripts is only going to increase and it may increase, as well, during the general election. Now, in the general election, I don't think it's going to be as problematic, because what will likely come out is that she says nice things about people on Wall Street, which, of course, is not a good thing to say in a Democratic primary. But, I think it gets to a bigger point, too, about, you know, how deep and how significant is the split that we're seeing in the Democratic Party? And will those Sanders supporters come back?
WALTERAnd, you know, the, if there's a good news for Democrats, it's that while there is a split in this party, they are more likely to unify, at least at this point, we're seeing in polling, more likely to say they'll unify behind Clinton than Republicans are saying that they'll unify behind their nominee, especially if it's Trump.
REHMAll right, and several emailers want us to point out that it is long time Trump ally Roger Stone who's threatening to make public the hotel room numbers at the Republican National Convention of the delegates who switch from Trump to another candidate, not Trump himself.
RAJUYeah, that's right. And Roger Stone is a longtime ally. The exact role he has on the campaign is not entirely clear.
REHMThat's -- yeah. That's...
RAJUYou know, but it also just really speaks to how concerned a lot of Republicans are about what this convention could mean. Not just for their party, but for themselves. I talked to a lot of Republican Senators this week and House members who frankly don't want to go to the convention, are planning to skip the convention because they think, politically, it will be bad for them. And they'd rather be home campaigning and avoid the kind of mess that maybe Roger Stone here is talking about.
REHM...do you think there is going to be some kind of mess there at the convention?
GLASSERI would say you wouldn't be going too far out on a limb to predict that. You know, whether it is 1968 and blood running in the streets or something...
REHMI can't believe that.
GLASSER...less than that, I -- exactly. I -- it's hard to say that that full on scenario exists, but it's certainly a real possibility. Again, if you look at what Trump has been saying, if you look at the increasingly nasty tenor of the crowds that he's been drawing and how he's been whipping them up, if you look at his signaling, and all of his signaling and that of his surrogates right now is if you don't give us the victory, even if you take it to a second ballot or a third -- I mean, to a third and a fourth ballot and something like that. We're not going to take it lying down.
GLASSERWe are, in fact, encouraging the rift in the party rather than signaling that, you know, the best man will win and whatever the outcome is will be satisfied with it. That tends to lead towards more violence, more polarization. There are ugly forces at work here.
WALTERAnd I think the other group of people that will be engaged, not within the convention center, but outside, are the kinds of people that have shown up to protest Trump from the very beginning. Liberals and Democrats and others so, that's the sort of clashes, we've seen them at Trump rallies. Now imagine taking that up to a hundred with the prospect of him as the nominee. Those clashes between Trump supporters and those who don't want to see Trump elected, who aren't even Republicans, I think that's -- personally, I think the most dangerous place to be will be outside of the convention center, not necessarily inside of it.
REHMAll right. Let's -- here's an email from Barbara, boy, this really does go back and forth, doesn't it? Pointing to the caller's criticism about Hillary's popularity as being tied to her husband's name and her gender. In your guest's response, says Barbara, he failed to note that George W. Bush would not likely have been Governor or President without the association of his father's name and money. And Trump's name would never have been associated with the Presidency without his own money and his celebrity. With the TV show, "The Apprentice," and we're seeing this morning on TV, some of the former...
WALTER"Apprentice" Stars. Yes.
REHM...candidates calling out...
WALTERDonald Trump. Right, especially African-American members of "The Apprentice" show, saying that, you know, he's been a demagogue and he's inciting our basest instincts on race and, you know, look, this is going to be a constant, constant refrain. With Donald Trump as the nominee, he both divides the party internally and he divides the country in a way that we just haven't seen in recent times.
REHM...all right. And an investigative police task force in Chicago accused the police there of institutional racism this week. Manu.
RAJUYeah, it was a really blistering report that -- this is a task force that was formed by Rahm Emanuel, the Chicago Mayor after incidents involving white police officers shooting unarmed black teenagers. And in some of the statistics here were pretty remarkable. It said that, you know, this is a city that has about a third populated of blacks. And 74 percent of the people, 404 people shot by the Chicago police, between 2008 and 2015, were black. In a city of a third comprised of African-Americans.
RAJUBlack people were subjects of 72 percent of the thousands of street stops that did not lead to an arrest and black drivers made up 46 percent of police traffic stops. And three out of every four people whom the Chicago police tried to use Taser guns between 2012 and 2015 were black. It really was a brutal, brutal report. It comes at a time when murders are increasing rapidly in Chicago. There it's really a scary situation. In the city, they're trying to overhaul the police department, Rahm Emanuel and the Chicago alderman have put in a new police commissioner, trying to see if they can change this institutional problem.
REHMAnd you're listening to "The Diane Rehm Show." So, what is Rahm Emanuel going to do about it, Susan?
GLASSERWell, you know, those numbers are horrifying, right? They're absolutely striking that Manu just read off. And what I was also struck by was even the bigger picture kind of policy critique that the Commission, I think, correctly said it's not just that we have these terrible numbers, but we are turning a code of silence into official policy. And I think that that's where Mayor Rahm Emanuel has really gotten hammered, right? It's not -- it's the failure to both acknowledge and to work in some purposeful way to change that. We all know that there's a decades-long shameful history of racism in the Chicago Police Department.
GLASSERRight? It's not the mayor's fault. He's only been there for a short amount of time when this has occurred. We all know that the institutionalized racism and violence has been going on far before Emanuel's time. His problem was that he tried to play racial politics and successfully did it, by the way, to win re-election. He mobilized black voters who didn't like him to unite, more or less, against a Hispanic candidate. So he played racial politics without wanting to talk in any way.
GLASSERAnd the silencing, of course, of that, covering up of the horrific video and the incident that led to this report in the first place is really, I think, what you can hold him accountable for. And what they now have to change, pretty quickly around. They can change the culture if they can't change the numbers.
REHMTwo emails. The first from David in Rochester, New York, who says, if Hillary had to play it safe in her comments on Israel because it's New York, then let's give Bernie extra credit for courageous honesty in his comments. It's the same New York for him. And a second email from Jess in Cleveland. What happened to investigative journalism? Why are we dependent on Hillary releasing her transcripts to know what she said in those speeches? Manu.
RAJUWell, I mean, you could presumably talk to some of these people who were there and hopefully they could talk. There may have been some reports about -- I think you at Politico, I think some others may have as well. I -- you know, it's...
REHMWhat have we got, Susan?
GLASSERYou know, it's as Amy said, I mean, you know, basically, for 250,000 bucks, you get, you know, a few nice words at the beginning about, you know, how supportive, she's appreciative of Goldman Sachs and her other customers, in effect, for having her there. But we haven't turned up any smoking gun. You know, she definitely said positive things, which is the reason why she's not releasing those transcripts...
REHMPositive things like?
GLASSER...like thank you for your patriotism, thank you for playing along and helping us to get out of the Great Recession in 2008.
WALTERAnd there's no investigative journalism that can dig this up, because this was a private meeting, so this is not, okay...
REHMBut you always have leaks somewhere.
WALTERYou do have leaks, but somebody has to benefit from a leak, right? How you get a leaker is they say, I need to get something from this. If you are somebody who sat in on a Goldman -- if you are the Goldman Sachs person that recorded it, what benefit is it to you to release it? If you're Hillary Clinton, you obviously don't see a benefit to releasing it. So, this is very different than being in a situation where it's a private meeting, but somebody has an angle to play. There's not an obvious angle here.
REHMNow, Bernie says he's releasing his tax records today. Last ones we have are, what, going back to 2014?
RAJUThat's right. He's going to release his 2014 tax returns. He was pushed yesterday to release even more than that, but he said that he would. It's going to take -- it's taking some time, because his wife Jane handles it, and they've been on the campaign trail.
REHMOkay, so Hillary then is going to release the transcripts?
RAJUI wouldn't bet on that.
GLASSERThat seemed to be the deal, but I don't think it's a deal.
REHMAll right, we shall see. Susan Glasser of Politico, Manu Raju, CNN, Amy Walter with the Cook Political Report. Thank you all so much.
REHMHave a great weekend, everybody. Thanks for listening. I'm Diane Rehm.